Author Topic: The 9 to 5 delusion  (Read 334003 times)

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Carjack

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The 9 to 5 delusion
« on: July 09, 2014, 03:16:37 AM »
Proponents of modern society like to argue that modernity has reduced the need for labor by inventing machines to do most of our work for us. They argue that the average man in the past was like a classical galley slave, toiling away 12 hours a day with no time for a break.

But of course, that's not true:

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Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time.


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All told, holiday leisure time in medieval England took up probably about one-third of the year. And the English were apparently working harder than their neighbors. The ancien règime in France is reported to have guaranteed fifty-two Sundays, ninety rest days, and thirty-eight holidays. In Spain, travelers noted that holidays totaled five months per year.

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

Right now, the industrialized world is not able to employ every working age man. Your ability to function in society and your social status hinges on the ability to look attractive to a boss, "put in the hours" and earn money. Is our modern society worth the stress?

Do the jobs that actually exist even benefit the community aside from keeping people employed?

Has productive work fallen victim to idiot managers who standardized work into a 9-to-5, six day a week charade where you're productive for 20 hours, but pretend to work 40?

What if instead of focusing on employment and GDP growth, society shifted to valuing its leisure time instead of ever more possessions bought with more work?

What if we had an economy of small businesses, small farmers and artisans instead of giant ___-Marts and fast food places?

Jackal

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 04:36:34 AM »
Do the jobs that actually exist even benefit the community aside from keeping people employed?


One of the many questions that people don't consider since most people dont understand the fundamental assumptions that are worked with in considering "economics." Its actually related to the post-collapse strategy of Guillame Faye in Archeofuturism.

Reminds me of this paper professor zaius mentions all the time:
http://www.colorado.edu/Economics/morey/4999Ethics/Religion/SchumacherEF_BuddistEconomics.pdf

Honestly the question of wealth, work, and the creation of more people isnt really discussed that often and as more and more people consider the stereotypical trans humanism questions concerning the "singularity" it seems a shame that it isnt the central question, considering that it doesnt really rely on social engineering as much as personal action.

1983

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 05:38:14 PM »
While this issue is important for discussion, I question literally everything in that first link.  "Before capitalism"?  Anything in a Marxist language is dubious, at best.

Carjack

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 07:47:35 PM »
Technically, the economic system of medieval times was Mercantilism. So the terminology used is correct.

A lot of the leisure days mentioned are due to religion, and have roots in pre-Christian times.

Exilarch

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 07:54:45 PM »
"Before capitalism"?  Anything in a Marxist language is dubious, at best.

We are among people who all at least generally agree, thus when reading things here it seems advisable to try to see the truth people are trying to communicate rather than looking for reasons to disqualify their input. Stringency and hair splitting are for dealing with redditors.

vir

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 12:19:17 PM »
Capitalism may also differ from traditional markets by its widespread incorporation of usury and, in its modern form, the use of government to stabilize it.

A better way is to have wise kings giving direction and to limit capitalism by culture.

Communism/socialism are essentially capitalism with redistribution, or in their most extreme form, everyone works at the point of a bayonet.

Jackal

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 02:52:22 PM »
the critiques ring true and honestly the power and danger of usury really needs to be examined.

It has fueled and broken empires.

vir

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 04:37:49 PM »
Usury enables dumbasses to borrow money for schemes and get wealthy, then control the society.

There's a reason it was seen as a sin.

1983

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2014, 04:32:01 PM »
It's also the only thing that allowed large scale construction of things like cathedrals in the Medieval Period.

Carjack

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2014, 04:57:13 PM »
I wonder where they got the money for Stonehenge.

Jackal

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 06:50:00 PM »
I wonder if stone age wonders and medieval mega churches are comparable

Carjack

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2014, 08:17:26 PM »
Indeed. A fancy church couldn't be near as expensive as the great pyramid

Exilarch

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2014, 08:23:53 PM »
If there's anything I hate, it's argumentative nerds on the internet.

Carjack is right, the 9 to 5 lifestyle sucks fat dick and everyone knows it. It's a core tenet of why we're all here - we agree that the foundation of the modern world is stupid bullshit.

Jackal - you're just niggling about details and splitting hairs over precise word usage because you're a shithead who wants to argue more than you want to agree. It's very obvious that you're not here to make friends but to fight little internet wars against more perceived enemies.

I'm having serious problems with this forum being a shithole of hair splitting and bickering. I never see "I agree!" Or "that's true, and here is my contribution to the discussion as well." I thought it was me and my abrasive personality so I stepped back for a bit to lurk, but the same thing happens with everyone else. I don't have an abrasive personality, people just suck dick.

Carjack

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 08:27:06 PM »
I'm not going to attack the usefulness of loans in certain situations.

But that doesn't in any way conflict with or invalidate the problem with giving everyone access to usury.

Give everyone a loan and they won't build a cathedral. They'll build a fancy six bedroom house with an S&M dungeon and 20 flat screen TVs. In 100 years, the house will rot to pieces and be a chemical hazard due to the shoddy building materials.

Nobody said "loans were invented by the devil to steal your soul". So I don't see where the disagreement is.

Jackal

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Re: The 9 to 5 delusion
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2014, 09:28:22 PM »
get the fuck out of here foam man. [guess I tripped that trap, my bad]

Look I don't have a positive view of usury. All I said was its worth studying since it is a powerful force. That doesn't really translate into an endorsement of it. Do you think I'm  wholly ignorant of why people aren't the biggest fan of it?

carjack I agree 99%. yes pyramids are pricey sons of bitches. I was talking about stone henge when you were comparing it to the financial systems of medieval Europe. I don't see where the disagreement is either. I thought it was a discussion with multiple tangents and perspectives.

my comment is an honest curiousity. Finacial systems in different locations at different places might not be easily comparable without a large consideration of the various factors involved. On a forum like this it's almost apples vs oranges.

I've been reading Niall Fergusons Civilization and it's full of questions and discussions along historical lines such as these.