Author Topic: Christianity: salvation or insanity?  (Read 313303 times)

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fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2014, 09:08:49 PM »
Jackal, please consider my explanation of what went wrong with American Christianity:

http://www.scripturist.org/The-Rise-and-Fall-of-Christian-Culture-tp5001012.html

Jackal

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2014, 09:39:17 PM »
Appreciate it. Rather well written and thought out.

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I only have a few qualms here:

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Christianity was relatively unproductive for its first 1500 years

I disagree. Im not a catholic and I can def see abuses in orthodoxy and  Catholicism but it was highly influential in this time period.

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Others like Zwingli and the early Anabaptists were more reasonable

luther had his faults but the anabaptists were generally not that reasonable all things considered.

Thats all that really jumped out at me as being off.

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Good bit here:

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All this sounds very alien to modern thought, for reasons I will explain later.  But think about the practical impact of such a theology.  People have no control over their salvation, they are at God's mercy.  This would cause extreme humility before God.  And while people can't control their fate, they may change what they believe their predetermined fate is through their actions.  This would cause serious soul-searching and serious Bible study in an attempt to understand where one stands.  A person would not consider himself saved unless he has studied the Bible and lived a virtuous life.  Only after doing these things might he hope that he is one of the elect.  So it is this remarkable theology of Calvin that caused the incredibly moral early Protestant culture.

Good qoute from finney as well.

as well as the poignant contention:
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He was certainly a good man with good intentions, which just shows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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And these doubts force him to focus on fixing himself, not others.

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Finney produced the modern American character, extremely confident and self-righteous, even while being relatively ignorant.

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But the Calvinistic Christian is consumed with doubt while also having supreme faith.

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Modern Christianity is a moral disaster.  What can be done?  As a non-Christian, I am not in a position to tell Christians what to do, but I will give my suggestion anyway.  Calvinism is not intellectually acceptable in our time because of its concept of predestination

free will and Fate are having a free for all as of late as well.


My final thoughts are that a protestant revitalization is one of the few plausible methods in america just do to american history. The abolition of man seems quite relevant for some reason.

I do empathize with your analysis with applying american christian evolution to modern politics. I do not think that it conflicts with current neoreactionary analysis and is merely more clarification. Those finney quotes and breakdown are dynamite.

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2014, 06:45:24 PM »
I think Calvinism is misunderstood:

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INTERVIEWER

You’ve said that you are “an old Calvinist pain-in-the-ass.” What do you mean?

HOUELLEBECQ

I tend to think that good and evil exist and that the quantity in each of us is unchangeable. The moral character of people is set, fixed until death. This resembles the Calvinist notion of predestination, in which people are born saved or damned, without being able to do a thing about it. And I am a curmudgeonly pain in the ass
because I refuse to diverge from the scientific method or to believe there is a truth beyond science.

http://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6040/the-art-of-fiction-no-206-michel-houellebecq

It's Evola's concept of races of the spirit plus the idea that each person has a certain ability and only those who pursue those abilities can know higher truths (esotericism).

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24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

What an interesting statement.

fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2014, 06:52:55 PM »
The irony is that Calvinism disproves Calvinist predestination because real Calvinism increases the percentage of the population that are qualified to be saved by Christian standards.  In the same way, Calvinism disproves the idea of 100% nature, 0% nurture.

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2014, 07:21:35 PM »
real Calvinism increases the percentage of the population that are qualified to be saved by Christian standards

Not to my knowledge. It simply says that some are born to sweet delight, and some are born to the endless night.

A reasonable assumption, part of recognizing that we have different roles in the world, and that we cannot "save" anyone or everyone.

fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2014, 07:30:27 PM »
Not to my knowledge. It simply says that some are born to sweet delight, and some are born to the endless night.
And you think the ratio of people of sweet delight to endless night is the same regardless of culture (assuming same genetics)?  If so, here are 2 books describing 2 groups from the same tiny genetic group whose behavior is entirely different for purely environmental reasons:

http://www.amazon.com/Forest-People-Colin-Turnbull/dp/0671640992/
http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-People-Colin-M-Turnbull/dp/0671640984/

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2014, 08:13:09 PM »
And you think the ratio of people of sweet delight to endless night is the same regardless of culture (assuming same genetics)? 

No, I do not. I think there are many factors here, but level is different.

Another way to think of this is musical. You have a specific key; within that key you have degrees of the scale. In the same way, genetics determines what level at which a civilization will have its bell curve, but the order applies at that level independent of genetics.

fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2014, 10:07:53 PM »
No, I do not. I think there are many factors here, but level is different.

Another way to think of this is musical. You have a specific key; within that key you have degrees of the scale. In the same way, genetics determines what level at which a civilization will have its bell curve, but the order applies at that level independent of genetics.
I agree with this, but with an added key point.  A good society will have improving genetics and a bad society will have decaying genetics, so in the long run a good society will climb to the top regardless of its starting genetics.  This genetic change is caused both by immigration/emigration and by internal breading caused by the society.

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2014, 07:38:50 AM »
A good society will have improving genetics and a bad society will have decaying genetics, so in the long run a good society will climb to the top regardless of its starting genetics. 

Here we agree. Eugenic breeding always produces good results; dysgenics always produces third world. The lower the substrate, however, the more generations and greater stresses are needed.

This genetic change is caused both by immigration/emigration and by internal breading caused by the society.

Immigration destroys the evolution in progress; emigration allows the unfit to leave, or if the society is devolving, all of the competent to leave if they can.

fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2014, 10:47:38 AM »
The only fault of the Puritans was supporting democracy, but other than that they were excellent.
It appears I may be wrong about this:

http://foseti.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/review-of-unqualified-reservations-part-1/#comment-45556

This would make the Puritans close to perfect in my view.

scourge

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2014, 04:11:35 PM »
It takes an Anglo Saxon to make a Puritan however. Here's an old opinion piece against one size fits all: http://www.amerika.org/globalism/universal-morality-on-its-death-bed/

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2014, 09:06:46 AM »
http://foseti.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/review-of-unqualified-reservations-part-1/#comment-45556

This would make the Puritans close to perfect in my view.

Sounds interesting:

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Puritans ministers were strictly forbidden roles as civil magistrates so theocracy was entirely out of the question.

The Puritan magistrates ruled according to their company charters with the advice of an elective council and generally in keeping with English law so Puritans were never even close to totalitarians. They were strict rule of law people. John Winthrop was voted out of the Governor’s office quite frequently.

Frankly, I think many people that write about the Puritans have no knowledge of them from primary accounts but only from their 19th and 20th c. detractors which is a shame.

By the way, Winthrop, Dudley & Cotton all agreed that democracy was the worst of all forms of government and cooperated to uphold a traditional if truncated hierarchy with the gentry as the ruling class, with yeomen and freemen able to elect representatives to the council, with propertyless servants at the bottom without representation. This, of course, worked much better than democracy.

This traditional English order was not seriously challenged until the revolution.

Still some glitches in that, but better than what others have tried.

I like the Puritan approach in general: if something is wrong, there's no bargaining with it -- do not support it, exile it from your communities, and let nature finish it off.

Jackal

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2014, 09:35:25 PM »
be wary of history. Remember that most factions back in the day do not exhibit sign of modern leftism since they needed to be masculine.

Yes the puritans werent all bad but all the puritans are are the 1600s equivalent of all the people living in the north east right now. Much of the attitudes and actions taken by the left are related to the puritans activies and as such some of us may not like them. I'm mostly german and even though I love traditional systems I find puritanical systems deplorable.

fschmidt

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2014, 11:25:22 PM »
Jackal, can you give specific examples of Puritan attitudes and actions that you dislike?

vir

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Re: Christianity: salvation or insanity?
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2014, 12:25:30 PM »
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I can see a better form of Christianity, for example, where we use nihilism like a scrub-brush and scrape away all the irrelevant crap clogging up the path toward seeing its actual truth, which is a restatement of the ancient Indo-European belief in divinity through fearlessness regarding mortality. Heaven is a state of mind.

http://www.amerika.org/texts/cicada-killers-and-christ/